Discussion time!

[sulwen]

I wanna talk about sub!Tommy, and Twitter is confusing with all the different threads of conversation.

And, GO!

Comments

[thezerbitz.livejournal.com]

unf yes please!

[janescott.livejournal.com]

*waves* lol hi! :D

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

Hey, bb!!

Sub!Tommy is trufax. I've had this discussion with a couple of people. But I gotta go read the story first!!

BRB

[rubytuesday5681]

Tommy is a natural sub. This is obvious, yes?

[janescott.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes it is :D

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

I know we haven't had hair-pulling in a while, but you guys remember it, right? I know there was one clip in particular when Tommy's knees go out and he lets out a breath and his eyes close and looks like he's about to come right there on stage...why would you fake that? I just don't see it.

[etharei.livejournal.com]

IKR? Actually, even if they aren't fucking, it can still show that Tommy has natural sub instincts. Oooh pegging fic. Which would be torturous to Adam, being a very natural dom, if they weren't fucking.

Hmmmm. I'm now wondering if that's part of the ~connection they made when they first met or interacted. Like, probably nothing was said explicitly, but the dom in Adam recognized the sub in Tommy, that kind of thing.

[isolde13.livejournal.com]

Catcherofdreamz thinks that he's eager for approval from most people and that this could account for some of it.

I don't know him well enough to guess. But I'm pretty sure that Adam brings that out in him

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

That's interesting and definitely possible...you can tell he wants approval from Adam, at the very least.

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

This post needs pic and vid evidence. If only I had been more organized in saving media...

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

Just posted a pic. I'll repost it so that it's not collapsed.

[etharei.livejournal.com]

Kinda tl;dr but I really wanted to mention this.

One (two?) of the reasons I love Tommy, and something that I don't think enough people in the fandom give him credit for, is the fact that he seems to be both a natural sub and very comfortable about it. There's a hella lot of cultural constructs involved in this, but at the risk of oversimplifying, masculinity is so tightly associated with heterosexuality and dominance that straight men find gay men ~threatening or ~offensive because being gay obviously means they're non-heterosexual, and possibly non-dominant, and thus challenge the idea of what it means to be ~masculine. (This is why it ties in with feminist theory, btw.)

I love that Tommy doesn't mind being seen as non-heterosexual, non-masculine, and non-dominant to an established gay man. This is a HUGE component in Adam's message of equality and embracing diversity. Like, here is Adam, the non-heterosexual man who is unapologetically sexual and pretty ~dominant. Contrast him with Tommy, the submissive, non-masculine, counterpart, and Tommy is the heterosexual one. The mindfuck is so awesome I still want to jizz every time I think about it.

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

I know I've seen you talk about this before, and it really is kind of shockingly amazing, isn't it? I mean, Tommy's never gonna be able to escape that image, not now. And he seems so very, very cool with it. I love that boy.

[bones-2-be.livejournal.com]

Lol, late here, I feel, but I wanna just jump in with a few things. For one, isolde, I have a thing for the hair-pulling too. Someone pulls my hair and my eyes close and its like, whooooa. No faking. I think for tommy to be having the reaction he does means he's into it. That alone isn't sub-proof though, so we can look at the other stuff. Eg, the knees buckling, the glances, the tiny touches.

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

Not late at all, bb!

I can't make up my mind on the glances. I'm not sure if they're for the benefit of the audience or if they're for Adam, doing that flirty kiss me kiss me thing.

[neednotwant.livejournal.com]

Shall I bear gifs? I can't find that one particular one.. AGH. but here :D

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

YES, OMG BRING ME GIFS.

[jadziadrgnrdr.livejournal.com]

I'm not interested in the accouterments of S&M because I think they are dopey but I like the psychology of it: "going under" "being in the right headspace" "safe words" etc... I think of actualfax Tommy as someone who enjoys the novelty of having a larger more dominant person to make out with that he has in Adam. Whether they get drunk and for real make out or just keep it to the show I think he enjoys it. I also see him as a competent dom w a girl too. He makes aggressive affectionate gestures like Adam, such as throat grabbing.

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

It probably is very novel, isn't it? I hadn't really thought about that, but especially considering how Tommy's so obviously a cuddler...I can see how he could just enjoy the sensation of a larger person to cuddle.

[neednotwant.livejournal.com]

This is a favourite. :)

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

I love how easily Tommy just rolls with this. I mean, I really don't think it was planned, and yet it's not awkward at all, just flows perfectly. <3

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

So do we have thoughts on how Adam reacts when Tommy does try to take the initiative? He always seems very surprised to me, and generally backs away, laughing or smiling yes, but putting a very definite end to the action. Is it because he's just such a control freak when it comes to the show, you think?

[neednotwant.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's so much control freak, but definitely because he's the one running this show.
Maybe it's a line.. like it's who he wants to be on that stage in front of everyone. The one who calls the shots and makes his pretty bassist weak in the knees.

[neednotwant.livejournal.com]

This one from Melbourne? The fingers on the chin.



But seriously, there's one in particular with the hand on the neck that is perfect. I can't for the life of me find it. /o\

[matertenebrarum.livejournal.com]

this one?

[matertenebrarum.livejournal.com]

ill just post this one cause i have it open:

[etharei.livejournal.com]

THIS IS WHERE SOME OF US FIRST WENT O_O

[matertenebrarum.livejournal.com]

[isolde13.livejournal.com]

So hot, omg. So controlling.

Again...Tommy doesn't even fight it.

Wait...I need a moment.

I need a cigarette

[sulwen.livejournal.com]

OMG YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING. <3333

I'm seriously falling asleep - been really struggling with that damn fic all day long, plus work - but keep on going! I fully expect this post to be epic when I wake up, and I will SO reply to every single comment, because this subject is Relevant to My Interests.

*hugs you all*

[maybe77.livejournal.com]

Thanks for starting this! It's funny, it's actually quite relevant to my interests as well, and I'm totally bookmarking this post for future reference :)

proof that lipstick doesnt always mean no kiss btw

[matertenebrarum.livejournal.com]

Re: proof that lipstick doesnt always mean no kiss btw

[isolde13.livejournal.com]

I love this gif by the way. The way that Tommy looks out into the audience, so calm. He's so "yes, I'm his"

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

Okay, read story, caught up on Tweets.

Tommy is a natural sub. Period.

Some people just are, and not necessarily in a sexual way. I've seen the comments above, and Rei nailed it. Part of it, I think, is playing a role. But...watch his face. Look at the Fever vids, go back to the early ones. Those are very playful, very much 'fanservice/stagegay'. Fast forward to St Louis. The kiss we got as a "suck on that, Westboro!" That was going to be a lick, but Adam changed it, and you can see Tommy's reaction to it. It's very, "WHOA!" And he was into it, and more importantly, he gave in to it.

The kiss we got in Bethlehem was a departure. Yeah, it was on the heels of fake-n-bake-gate, and Tommy was somewhat subdued looking that night. It was also the first appearance of "The Sweater Of Love." That kiss was softer. And then...holy shit, St Jean. Now that was something altogether different. That was Tommy with his arm around Adam's wait, rather tightly, the kiss that never ended, and...Tommy's face. I believe his knees would have been shaking, had the camera panned down.

Of course that takes us to Providence. And WTF was that?? That was Adam establishing Dom status, and Tommy submitting in front of everyone. And of course, no one really noticed. they were too busy dissecting "But he also...he likes this." THAT was gonna be...something. And then Adam's brain engaged, thanks a lot, Adam-NOT.

After this, though, when we have a Fever moment, Tommy's face goes from waiting for his cue to...waiting. His eyes go to Adam for his 'cue' all the time, months after everything should be by rote. Of course, he and Adam have more physical contact. But if you want a really good comparison...watch Monte. What he does with Adam is very masculine, very...hetero. Tommy is softer, prettier, and way more...submissive. The way he leans on Adam...and how funny that Adam calls him a pretty kitty. He is constantly in Adam's orbit, seeking Adam's eyes, his body contact...but not aggressively.

Damn...look at this comment. tl:dr rambling mess.

[etharei.livejournal.com]

EVERYTHING YOU SAID ♥

The St. Louis one had me watching for, like, 95029350 times. Tommy is very good at ~rolling with it. That's why I don't get people who are convinced that he's somehow secretly ~unwilling or being taken advantage of. *eye-roll* Also he's a grown-ass man, way to be insulting to both him and Adam. I mean, the very first time he ~rolled with it was THE FIRST TIME WE SAW HIM, performance-wise, at the AMAs.

Which is fascinating on its own. Obviously right now he and Adam have grown close and are good friends who are comfortable with each other. Last November, they'd known each other, what, a month? AND YET TOMMY JUST MELTED INTO THAT FIRST KISS. That totally screams natural sub to me, like you've said.

[matertenebrarum.livejournal.com]

oh whats that tommy, you wanna nuzzle? nah. *yank*

[jadziadrgnrdr.livejournal.com]

Guh!


Hotness. I think too Tommy and at times Adam is experiencing all this through the fuzzy warmth of alcohol consumption so I think Tommy is just more apt to let himself enjoy being ~handled.

[layniedane.livejournal.com]

LOVE this discussion! :-)

[aldrea7.livejournal.com]

Ah, sub!Tommy. I think it really is just natural, because he makes the dom bitch in me want to tie him down and have my way with him and I've NEVER had a reaction like that to a guy, and I don't think I would if it was purely just acting. The way he just gives to Adam is amazing.

[maybe77.livejournal.com]

he makes the dom bitch in me want to tie him down and have my way with him and I've NEVER had a reaction like that to a guy

This is me exactly. It's a total mindfuck to me. But mindfuck seems to be a recurring thread in a lot of this discussion, lol.

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

THIS.




Explain THAT.

Okay, I will.

THIS is what Tommy looks like when he REALLY WANTS THAT KISS.

Boy has NO poker face. AT ALL.

[mtnwomanbc.livejournal.com]

I totally love this discussion, both the thinky parts and the droolz parts. TY! All I know is that I get all squinchy every time I watch the slo-mo gifs.

I especially like the analysis of the early kiss moments and the later ones. Was the "love sweater" the first time Tommy drew Adam in with his hand on his back? That's happening more and more -- the one where Adam hold his hand was unexpected. So sweet and definitely UNFy